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      CommentAuthormattymcg
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2007 edited
     
    I'm curious as to how WSG members feel about this topic. I'm not involved in either port80 or WIPA (apart from making the occasional post to the port80 forums and having friends who are involved in both organisations).

    It seems to me that both organisations are trying to do the same thing. port80 suffers from being Perth-centric, but is trying to pretend it isn't. WIPA suffers from being perceived as Sydney-centric, even though the majority of its foundation members are not based in NSW. East vs West.

    Both organisations are doing cool stuff, like the Web Awards and the W-W-Web-a-thon. Both refer to themselves as associations for "the Australian web industry" (see this thread although it's unfortunate that the awia.org.au domain has already been taken -- nobody digs a .asn domain, guys, seriously). And both organisations are competing for the membership fees of their members.

    As someone who could potentially benefit from being a member of an organisation like this, I must confess I find it confusing. There are some politics and territorial issues involved here but my view is that the two groups should just merge and capitalise on each other's strengths.

    [edit: originally posted to Core Chat but moved to General Chat as I decided to open it up]
    • CommentAuthornickobec
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007
     
    Declaration of interest: I am from Perth, I am a Port80 member, I consider most of the Port80/AWIA committee members and a number of the WIPA committee members as friends.

    I think the big difference between Port80 and WIPA is their philosophy.

    Port80, started out as a social group (much like the refresh meetups) for people in the web industry to meet once a month, socialise, network and occasionally whinge about clients. Over time it evolved, started running events, found it could get assistance from the WA Government, started running bigger events and finally decided to try and export the ground up model to other states. In other words get people involved socially then build a structure around them.

    WIPA would appear to be a top down model, "some people in Sydney" tired that was no national body representing the web industry, decided to create one, used the contacts with some of the best people in the industry and created WIPA. Build a good structure, with good people and you will attract your members.

    The problem is that both groups decide to take action at the same time and because the acted independently and without communicating with each other. If one had started moving a year before the other you would see the two working together by now. But because you have them both charging towards the same target you will get a collision and crash of heads (or at least egos).

    What I don't want to see, is WIPA using it's people, the local WSG groups and others to build a solid membership up in Sydney, Melbourne and possibley Canberra and Port80 creating social networks in Adelaide and Brisbane, where none existed to create a Sydney+Melbourne WIPA vs Perth+Adelaide+Brisbane AWIA. But that is a likely outcome if the present situation continues.

    Two competing "representative" bodies is not good for the industry. I want a representative body.
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      CommentAuthor200ok
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007
     
    Interesting. Then of course there's WSG thrown into the mix.

    The real issue would be if one of the organisations tried to set itself up as a national certification authority (which I don't think anyone has attempted just yet?).

    Until then, does it matter if more than one group is running? People can find the group with the best fit/personality for them.
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      CommentAuthorTuna
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2007 edited
     
    First off, the disclaimer. I'm from Port80 (AWIA inc) WA branch. I'm not on or ever have been on the Port80 committee

    Why did I join Port80 before WIPA, well WIPA only formally announced themselves last Sept 2006. Hence there was nothing but Port80 (and Port80) is local to me. So it makes sense. If WIPA was open to membership (which it isn't from my view point at the moment) I would join that too.

    I want a professional Web industry body. Port80 is nice as a social thing. But I want more, I'm pushy, I'm greedy, I want a professional body. I'm sick of the only bodies that are remotely in the professional zone being not really related to the web industry. Sick to the core. If Port80 isn't going to go down this route. Then sadly Port80 will not fill that role for me.

    But I don't want a National Professional body that is only centric in one town (Perth or Sydney) as frankly this is just a waste of time as I'm not likely to fly across the country for a evenings event no matter who is there. I need the group to be in my town, local. its that or nothing. I don't care if its WIPA or Port80 or whatever. But it must be local.

    I'm waiting patiently for WIPA to do or at least organise something that would be of interest outside Sydney. Okay I'm a long way from the East Coast. but why can't I have my events local too. We have local committee members (so I see).

    Now the Warning. I have seen this type of thing happen twice before. Two new professional groups in a collision of agenda and ego. No one wins, you end up with a segmented industry with two / three bodies and weak / strong branches in the respective groups geographical focus areas (as Nickobec pointed out).

    It does not work, the egos and people years later will tell you they can't now merge and that it does work. But frankly it doesn't, you end up with two groups going after the same limited numbers of members and as membership fees rise (and they will) you end up with members having to make a choice of association loyalty. And this segmentation also weakens the lobby group position of any professional association.

    Please people put the egos and agendas aside for the web industry we need a central body not two fighting groups. I know the initial meeting of the two groups at WD06 was under a closed veil, But you can tell it didn't go that well. The egos remain. The problem is still there.

    But take my advice, merge now in the early days, it will be easier now than later. After a year of so you will see that I'm right.

    People put the egos and agenda aside. We need ONE body.

    The benefits don't really need to be spelt out. But - centralised resources; strong lobby group; central professional standards; professional occupation status; federal funding; Increased member benefits the list goes on.

    I'm with nickobec I want ONE professional body. NOT TWO!

    Edit - By the time you get to the capacity of doing a national certification authority its too late, you have two organsations with two standards, with two certifications schemes and they are both fighting for the same air space, the losers are the members.

    WSG is a subset as its Standards focused, Standards are NOT the web industry
  1.  
    Over the last couple of months I've been planning a local WSG group here in Adelaide and I've also been speaking with Port80 about starting something up here, too.

    My own work and (everyone on holidays over) Christmas has slowed my progress some, but by the end of February I hope to have had a WSG meeting, or two. (fingers crossed) And possibly a get-together with the other ...

    I don't really mind what the group is called, be it AWIA/Port80, WIPA, or something entirely new. I'm involved because I want to help create a sense of community. I believe a merge of some kind would fit this philosophy perfectly.

    With money involved, tho' (registrations, etc.) ... it's obviously going to be complicated. And, that's assuming it's an option at all. If so, I wish the driving forces of both movements a peaceful resolution.

    Until then, I'll proceed as best I can. :-)

    PS. If anyone wants to help out, I'd certainly appreciate it.
  2.  
    I am a committee member of AWIA, and I should prefex this with - this is my personal opinion and not that of the committee.

    WIPA were contacted formally by Port80 prior to their initial committee meeting, and we also had very promising informal discussions with individual members prior to that as well.

    Unfortuneatly at the moment the response has been that WIPA does not currently want to discuss the idea of merging or formally working together and that the two organisations will work independently but 'complement' each other.

    Personally, I do not think this approach will work - actually I am not sure how it is even possible - and in fact I believe if WIPA does eventually take memberships or formally announce what their agenda is, then in the long term it will be at the serious detriment of Port80/AWIA.

    It should also be noted that Port80 has been around as a fully registered association for quite some time - and yes it is very much Perth centric at the moment. We have been working to increase the involvements of the other states - but it has been a slow process.

    I was very disappointed when the decision to work indepentently was announced, escpecially since Port80 had been going for several years and it would be a great shame to see the effort over the last few years lost.
  3.  
    I should just clarify this as well:

    "Unfortuneatly at the moment the response has been that WIPA does not currently want to discuss the idea of merging or formally working together and that the two organisations will work independently but 'complement' each other."

    From what I understand WIPA needs to establish what their goals are before deciding on what action they should take - so there is still hope for the two organisations may work closely together.
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      CommentAuthorabsalom
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2007
     
    It's been the one dilemma I face this year..

    Which professional orgs do I sign up to ? I'm of the same mind as Matty.. and face the same dilemma of WIPA not being regionally aware as much as Port80 is. Sure, WIPA may have a more 'professional' / advocate focus, but I need to see what it can do in action before buy-in. Port80, well, I meet them at the pub every month.
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      CommentAuthorruss
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2007
     
    First of all, I think all of this discussion is very important for the community - people need to be able to express their views and concerns.

    I'd like to try and address some of the comments that have been made above.

    1. WIPA AND Port80
    ----------------------------------

    WIPA was founded to try to perform a number of objectives, including providing information and assistance to Web industry professionals through forums, mail lists, seminars, events and workshops.

    WIPA was not set up as competition to Port80 or any of the other internet/web related associations. We are willing to work with all comers towards a common goal of representing the needs and aspirations of people who work in the web industry in Australia. We are also not aligned with any one sector of the industry (eg WSG, Usability, IA etc) or with any particular technology or industry platform. We are keen to see the industry in Australia develop and mature so that is able to fulfil the basic aims of the W3C and WAI.

    While there might be some benefits in having one Australia-wide industry association, there are also definite advantages in keeping WIPA and Port80 as two different associations.

    1. The two associations will be better able to provide greater diversity. Each will probably focus on different aspects of the Web Profession for the benefit of everyone.

    2. People can choose the organisation that suits their needs. If one association is not focussing on aspects that they are interested in, there is a possibility that the other association may. And of course, some people may join both associations given the annual fees for both are not great.

    3. There may be times in the near future when workshops can be organised and funded jointly by both Associations. Fully National workshops are always much harder to achieve with one Association, and there is always a danger that a single Association may focus on just one side of the continent. With two associations, one incorporated in NSW and the other in WA, we should be able to work together in presenting workshops across Australia and share the costs involved.

    4. There may be times when resources are pooled to create a better product. For example, there is a strong possibility that the two groups will work together on a National Web Awards. Again, it would be very hard for one Association to cover the entire country without being stretched. With two Associations, this task is much easier.

    I think the key here is avoiding overlap: as with almost all potential issues, this can be easily addressed by open communication.

    I have met with various members of the Port80 committee in the first weeks after WIPA launched and there was an open dialog about possible concerns and issues. I have also chatted and emailed with Myles and we have openly discussed future projects and other aspects of the two Associations.

    I would very much like to continue this open dialog. The last thing that WIPA wants to do is to undertake an action that could undermine or clash with Port80.


    2. WIPA SYDNEY-CENTRIC
    ----------------------------------

    WIPA aims to be a National Association and the committee was deliberately set up with representatives from a variety of states. WIPA's rules specifically provide for representation on the Management Committee from every state with 5 or more WIPA members. This is something we will continue to work towards as new members come on board.

    While it is likely some of the earlier events will probably occur in the Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne triangle (mainly for financial/logistical reasons), WIPA will be moving as quickly as possible to having events in other states and cities.


    3. FUTURE
    ----------------------------------

    Like anything, time will tell. WIPA is in the process of building and then launching its website. As soon as this occurs we will be outlining a range of projects for the year, and opening up to membership. I think it will become clear when these exciting programs are announced that none of them will detrimentally affect Port80 or any other association.

    Of course, you will all be the judge of this :)
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      CommentAuthorabsalom
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2007
     
    Well, I signed up to AIWA a couple of days ago.. and managed to get myself delisted in the move.. <what the?>..

    Hopefully I don't turn into the phantom AIWA member..
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      CommentAuthorkay
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2007
     
    Heh, sorry about that Lawrence - we do know you're a member, you're in the db, and I'll sort that out ASAP. The move to the new server and new membership system was obviously not as smooth as we had hoped! But we're now set to handle more members far more easily, and on our own virtual server.

    The new site is now online:
    Australian Web Industry Association

    Business members also get a listing in the Australian Web Industry Index.
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      CommentAuthorwebboy
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2007 edited
     
    A message from Roger Hudson for Australian web professionals

    The new WIPA site was launched on Monday.

    The recently established Web Industry Professionals Association (WIPA) aims to foster the development of the Web Industry in Australia and provide forums where people who work in all the different facets of the industry can come together and exchange ideas.

    Australian web professionals can now join WIPA through the new site.

    WIPA is not just for one web practice or section of the industry. WIPA is for all web professionals in Australia including, designers, content writers, information architects, usability and accessibility specialists, web developers, interface developers, online content producers etc. In short, anyone who works in the business and who has an interest in discussing, promoting and improving the work we do.

    WIPA is a not for profit association incorporated in NSW. Although the incorporation is in NSW, the association is committed to promoting and representing the work of web professionals throughout Australia. As a clear demonstration of this commitment, the Association Rules provide for representation on the Management Committee from all States and Territories with more than 5 WIPA Members. Also, the position of Vice-President is reserved for a person who does not live in NSW. The current WIPA Management Committee has members from the ACT, NSW and Victoria.

    There is a variety of other web-related groups in Australia including, the Web Standards Group, Usability Professionals Association, Oz-IA, AWIA, Mobile Monday and AIMIA. WIPA aims to work cooperatively with all other groups in helping to develop a cohesive and sustainable web industry in Australia.

    For more information about WIPA and to join the association visit http://wipa.org.au/

    Thanks
    Roger Hudson
    President - Web Industry Professionals Association Incorporated
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      CommentAuthormattymcg
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2007 edited
     
    Like anything, time will tell. WIPA is in the process of building and then launching its website. As soon as this occurs we will be outlining a range of projects for the year, and opening up to membership. I think it will become clear when these exciting programs are announced that none of them will detrimentally affect Port80 or any other association.


    So what do people think, now that the WIPA site has launched and events are listed. Do the two organisations compete? Can it work?
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      CommentAuthorwebboy
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2007
     
    Hi Matt,

    The only WIPA event listed so far (and we haven't launched it yet) is FullCodePress. All the other events are not WIPA events but a listing of any web-related event we can find (including Port80 and AIMIA events). We're not trying to compete with anyone.

    To everyone else,

    If Port80/AWIA does what you want it to do, great, join AWIA. If WIPA does what you want it to do, join WIPA. Or both, or neither - it's entirely up to you.

    You can watch Channel 10, or Channel 9 or Channel 7 or all or none. Same deal. They have different stuff and you don't need to get a tattoo on your arse committing you for life to join either WIPA, AWIA, AIMIA or any others.

    If there was a (non-social) AWIA/Port80 presence in the Hunter Valley, I'd join. If I was in Perth I would certainly join both associations.

    I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

    P
    •  
      CommentAuthorwebboy
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2007
     
    I'd just like to add something else.

    What really bugs me about this whole thing (and it's more on the Port80 forum than this thread and it isn't the AWIA Committee people saying it, just general members) is that WIPA is being held up as Sydney-centric but there is no consistancy in the reverse argument.

    I'd join the National Body AWIA in a heartbeat if I could enter Recycling Near You for an award (it does service WA communities very well!). But of course I can't because I live in rural NSW.

    Now that's an AWIA Committee decision, and I'm absolutely cool with it (as I'm not a member and therefor have no right to complain), but AWIA members (and other WA residents that haven't even bothered to join AWIA but want to whinge anyway) need to judge their own organisation with the same parameters before complaining about what WIPA may or may not do.

    Western Australian WIPA members (well, there is only one so far) are quite welcome to apply to be part of FullCodePress, as are WIPA members from any other state.

    Decisions are made by those who show up.

    Four more people from WA join WIPA and we'll elect one of them onto the WIPA Management Committee as per the rules of the association. Then that person gets to drive it as hard as anyone else on the committee. I had sincerely hoped that that person would be Kay, but unfortunately she had to decline due to other committments.

    P
  4.  
    The reason you can't enter the WA web awards, is that it is WA only. As you would know, to run a web awards in other states requires people on the ground in those states willing to spend the 10 months plus organising it.

    You also forgot to mention that AWIA and WIPA have discussed running a national web awards as a joint effort - so it's not that we are ignorant to the fact that at the moment there is only a WA awards night.

    A